Topics

Community input on possible change to Discord from Slack


Kumar Gala
 

All,

We’ve had a few discussion in the Zephyr TSC regarding the need for maintaining history in our chat communication platform and the limitation that Slack imposes on this for free usage. The general feeling is that having access to historical discussions is important for the continued growth of the Zephyr community.

We have tried to engage Slack on a cost effective solution but unfortunately that does not appear to be an option. A few different options that have been evaluated (Discord, matrix.org, rocket chat, Microsoft Teams) and Discord seemed to be the best option and has had a fair amount of history with Adafruit (a Silver Member).

Some requirements for Zephyr chat platform:
* Maintain history
* integration with other services (like GitHub)
* private channels
* ideally free - or low cost
* no overhead for Zephyr Project (ie not having to run our own server).

Pros of Discord:
* Shared accounts across "servers" which are really just communities. Makes joining a new server very fast and easy.
* Strong moderation tools (mute, ban, kick) per server. No need to wait for Discord to help.
* Unlimited history for free.
* Easy to join via invite link, chat and then establish an account.

Cons of Discord:
* Can get spammy when publicly listed.
* Still in the startup phase so they are experimenting with business models. Currently "Nitro" subscription which unlocks server capabilities: https://discord.com/new/nitro
* Closed source so interop with Matrix and IRC is tricky but doable.

We’d like to get any feedback from the community at large before finalizing a decision in the TSC. The topic will be on the July 29th TSC meeting and will review any email feedback that anyone has on the topic.

Thanks

A few links:
* Current Open Source communities utilizing Discord: https://discord.com/open-source
* Zephyr Discord: https://discord.gg/28BgkM

(NOTE: The Zephyr Discord is setup for testing purposes at this time)


Henrik Brix Andersen
 

Hi all,

I have never used Discord before, but I given it a quick try the last couple of days.

My main concern is that Discord does not support threads (only quoting). This will cause all messages to go to the channel, making it more difficult to glance over the new topics.
It also makes it rather impossible to continue a discussion over several days or to follow up on a question or solution several days later, something that is often used on Slack today.

One of the bullets below lists shared accounts across servers as a pro for Discord. I am not so sure. The sign-on process was at least as difficult as with Slack.

Have we considered that once Discord settles on their business models, they too might start charging for unlimited message history?

Maybe it is just me, but there is also the question of familiarity with the service for our users.
It is my personal experience that many professionals within the embedded market know of Slack, but not many use Discord perhaps due to it being rooted in the gaming communities?

Regards,
Brix
--
Henrik Brix Andersen

On 17 Jul 2020, at 00.27, Kumar Gala <kumar.gala@...> wrote:

All,

We’ve had a few discussion in the Zephyr TSC regarding the need for maintaining history in our chat communication platform and the limitation that Slack imposes on this for free usage. The general feeling is that having access to historical discussions is important for the continued growth of the Zephyr community.

We have tried to engage Slack on a cost effective solution but unfortunately that does not appear to be an option. A few different options that have been evaluated (Discord, matrix.org, rocket chat, Microsoft Teams) and Discord seemed to be the best option and has had a fair amount of history with Adafruit (a Silver Member).

Some requirements for Zephyr chat platform:
* Maintain history
* integration with other services (like GitHub)
* private channels
* ideally free - or low cost
* no overhead for Zephyr Project (ie not having to run our own server).

Pros of Discord:
* Shared accounts across "servers" which are really just communities. Makes joining a new server very fast and easy.
* Strong moderation tools (mute, ban, kick) per server. No need to wait for Discord to help.
* Unlimited history for free.
* Easy to join via invite link, chat and then establish an account.

Cons of Discord:
* Can get spammy when publicly listed.
* Still in the startup phase so they are experimenting with business models. Currently "Nitro" subscription which unlocks server capabilities: https://discord.com/new/nitro
* Closed source so interop with Matrix and IRC is tricky but doable.

We’d like to get any feedback from the community at large before finalizing a decision in the TSC. The topic will be on the July 29th TSC meeting and will review any email feedback that anyone has on the topic.

Thanks

A few links:
* Current Open Source communities utilizing Discord: https://discord.com/open-source
* Zephyr Discord: https://discord.gg/28BgkM

(NOTE: The Zephyr Discord is setup for testing purposes at this time)


Jett ✈ Rink
 

I know that Zephyr uses Google docs already, and that Gsuite is free for non-profit companies. Have we considered chat.google.com as an alternative? It may be free or part of what Zephyr is already paying for. It has conversations/threads and history, etc.

-Jett

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 3:23 AM Henrik Brix Andersen <henrik@...> wrote:
Hi all,

I have never used Discord before, but I given it a quick try the last couple of days.

My main concern is that Discord does not support threads (only quoting). This will cause all messages to go to the channel, making it more difficult to glance over the new topics.
It also makes it rather impossible to continue a discussion over several days or to follow up on a question or solution several days later, something that is often used on Slack today.

One of the bullets below lists shared accounts across servers as a pro for Discord. I am not so sure. The sign-on process was at least as difficult as with Slack.

Have we considered that once Discord settles on their business models, they too might start charging for unlimited message history?

Maybe it is just me, but there is also the question of familiarity with the service for our users.
It is my personal experience that many professionals within the embedded market know of Slack, but not many use Discord perhaps due to it being rooted in the gaming communities?

Regards,
Brix
--
Henrik Brix Andersen


> On 17 Jul 2020, at 00.27, Kumar Gala <kumar.gala@...> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> We’ve had a few discussion in the Zephyr TSC regarding the need for maintaining history in our chat communication platform and the limitation that Slack imposes on this for free usage.  The general feeling is that having access to historical discussions is important for the continued growth of the Zephyr community.
>
> We have tried to engage Slack on a cost effective solution but unfortunately that does not appear to be an option.  A few different options that have been evaluated (Discord, matrix.org, rocket chat, Microsoft Teams) and Discord seemed to be the best option and has had a fair amount of history with Adafruit (a Silver Member).
>
> Some requirements for Zephyr chat platform:
> * Maintain history
> * integration with other services (like GitHub)
> * private channels
> * ideally free - or low cost
> * no overhead for Zephyr Project (ie not having to run our own server).
>
> Pros of Discord:
> * Shared accounts across "servers" which are really just communities. Makes joining a new server very fast and easy.
> * Strong moderation tools (mute, ban, kick) per server. No need to wait for Discord to help.
> * Unlimited history for free.
> * Easy to join via invite link, chat and then establish an account.
>
> Cons of Discord:
> * Can get spammy when publicly listed.
> * Still in the startup phase so they are experimenting with business models. Currently "Nitro" subscription which unlocks server capabilities: https://discord.com/new/nitro
> * Closed source so interop with Matrix and IRC is tricky but doable.
>
> We’d like to get any feedback from the community at large before finalizing a decision in the TSC.  The topic will be on the July 29th TSC meeting and will review any email feedback that anyone has on the topic.
>
> Thanks
>
> A few links:
> * Current Open Source communities utilizing Discord: https://discord.com/open-source
> * Zephyr Discord: https://discord.gg/28BgkM
>
> (NOTE: The Zephyr Discord is setup for testing purposes at this time)
>
>





Peter A. Bigot
 

Are we tracking the Zephyr requirements for a chat server anywhere, and assessing them against a list of candidate services?

Based on some trials at https://discord.com/channels/720317445772017664/720317445772017667/734352748396413051 I think thread support should be a requirement, and that Discord doesn't satisfy it.

Peter


Nashif, Anas
 

It depends who you ask, lots of people actually do not care or like threads the way they are implemented in Slack. This is basically a place where conversation just get buried.

IRC did not have threads, yet it is still there after almost 30 years.

 

Anas

 

From: <devel@...> on behalf of "Peter A. Bigot" <pab@...>
Date: Tuesday, 21 July 2020 at 19:41
To: "devel@..." <devel@...>
Subject: Re: [Zephyr-devel] Community input on possible change to Discord from Slack

 

Are we tracking the Zephyr requirements for a chat server anywhere, and assessing them against a list of candidate services?

Based on some trials at https://discord.com/channels/720317445772017664/720317445772017667/734352748396413051 I think thread support should be a requirement, and that Discord doesn't satisfy it.

Peter


Bolivar, Marti
 

Age is not necessarily a sign of quality. Usenet is still around in some
form or another, but nobody is advocating we use it for Zephyr, are they?

I think the IRC style of simultaneously carrying on multiple unrelated
conversations in the same channel using nicks hard to read and find
threads much more readable. Just my two cents.

"Nashif, Anas via lists.zephyrproject.org"
<anas.nashif=intel.com@...> writes:

It depends who you ask, lots of people actually do not care or like threads the way they are implemented in Slack. This is basically a place where conversation just get buried.
IRC did not have threads, yet it is still there after almost 30 years.

Anas

From: <devel@...> on behalf of "Peter A. Bigot" <pab@...>
Date: Tuesday, 21 July 2020 at 19:41
To: "devel@..." <devel@...>
Subject: Re: [Zephyr-devel] Community input on possible change to Discord from Slack

Are we tracking the Zephyr requirements for a chat server anywhere, and assessing them against a list of candidate services?

Based on some trials at https://discord.com/channels/720317445772017664/720317445772017667/734352748396413051 I think thread support should be a requirement, and that Discord doesn't satisfy it.

Peter



Nashif, Anas
 

I am not saying IRC is a quality chat client, but the model works in that you can also chat without threads, and it has been done and is being done in many places already. I personally find threads an annoyance in slack and is usually where I miss most of the conversations. Keeping an eye on the inflow of messages while doing something else and jumping in when interested is not something that is possible with threads, you basically have to click and open threads to see what is going on.

Anas

On 21/07/2020, 20:01, "devel@... on behalf of Bolivar, Marti" <devel@... on behalf of marti.bolivar@...> wrote:

Age is not necessarily a sign of quality. Usenet is still around in some
form or another, but nobody is advocating we use it for Zephyr, are they?

I think the IRC style of simultaneously carrying on multiple unrelated
conversations in the same channel using nicks hard to read and find
threads much more readable. Just my two cents.

"Nashif, Anas via lists.zephyrproject.org"
<anas.nashif=intel.com@...> writes:

It depends who you ask, lots of people actually do not care or like threads the way they are implemented in Slack. This is basically a place where conversation just get buried.
> IRC did not have threads, yet it is still there after almost 30 years.
>
> Anas
>
> From: <devel@...> on behalf of "Peter A. Bigot" <pab@...>
> Date: Tuesday, 21 July 2020 at 19:41
> To: "devel@..." <devel@...>
> Subject: Re: [Zephyr-devel] Community input on possible change to Discord from Slack
>
> Are we tracking the Zephyr requirements for a chat server anywhere, and assessing them against a list of candidate services?
>
> Based on some trials at https://discord.com/channels/720317445772017664/720317445772017667/734352748396413051 I think thread support should be a requirement, and that Discord doesn't satisfy it.
>
> Peter
>
>
>


Nashif, Anas
 

Jett,

Zephyr project is not subscribed to any gsuite plans, free or paid. AFAIK we use google docs from LF in some areas. Maybe we should look into the non-profit “companies” option.

Never heard of chat.google.com, well hidden 😊

 

Anas

 

From: <devel@...> on behalf of "Jett Rink via lists.zephyrproject.org" <jettrink=google.com@...>
Reply to: "jettrink@..." <jettrink@...>
Date: Tuesday, 21 July 2020 at 19:17
To: Henrik Brix Andersen <henrik@...>
Cc: Kumar Gala <kumar.gala@...>, zephyr-devel <zephyr-devel@...>, Ryan Johnson via Zephyr-users <zephyr-users@...>
Subject: Re: [Zephyr-devel] Community input on possible change to Discord from Slack

 

I know that Zephyr uses Google docs already, and that Gsuite is free for non-profit companies. Have we considered chat.google.com as an alternative? It may be free or part of what Zephyr is already paying for. It has conversations/threads and history, etc.

 

-Jett

 

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 3:23 AM Henrik Brix Andersen <henrik@...> wrote:

Hi all,

I have never used Discord before, but I given it a quick try the last couple of days.

My main concern is that Discord does not support threads (only quoting). This will cause all messages to go to the channel, making it more difficult to glance over the new topics.
It also makes it rather impossible to continue a discussion over several days or to follow up on a question or solution several days later, something that is often used on Slack today.

One of the bullets below lists shared accounts across servers as a pro for Discord. I am not so sure. The sign-on process was at least as difficult as with Slack.

Have we considered that once Discord settles on their business models, they too might start charging for unlimited message history?

Maybe it is just me, but there is also the question of familiarity with the service for our users.
It is my personal experience that many professionals within the embedded market know of Slack, but not many use Discord perhaps due to it being rooted in the gaming communities?

Regards,
Brix
--
Henrik Brix Andersen


> On 17 Jul 2020, at 00.27, Kumar Gala <kumar.gala@...> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> We’ve had a few discussion in the Zephyr TSC regarding the need for maintaining history in our chat communication platform and the limitation that Slack imposes on this for free usage.  The general feeling is that having access to historical discussions is important for the continued growth of the Zephyr community.
>
> We have tried to engage Slack on a cost effective solution but unfortunately that does not appear to be an option.  A few different options that have been evaluated (Discord, matrix.org, rocket chat, Microsoft Teams) and Discord seemed to be the best option and has had a fair amount of history with Adafruit (a Silver Member).
>
> Some requirements for Zephyr chat platform:
> * Maintain history
> * integration with other services (like GitHub)
> * private channels
> * ideally free - or low cost
> * no overhead for Zephyr Project (ie not having to run our own server).
>
> Pros of Discord:
> * Shared accounts across "servers" which are really just communities. Makes joining a new server very fast and easy.
> * Strong moderation tools (mute, ban, kick) per server. No need to wait for Discord to help.
> * Unlimited history for free.
> * Easy to join via invite link, chat and then establish an account.
>
> Cons of Discord:
> * Can get spammy when publicly listed.
> * Still in the startup phase so they are experimenting with business models. Currently "Nitro" subscription which unlocks server capabilities: https://discord.com/new/nitro
> * Closed source so interop with Matrix and IRC is tricky but doable.
>
> We’d like to get any feedback from the community at large before finalizing a decision in the TSC.  The topic will be on the July 29th TSC meeting and will review any email feedback that anyone has on the topic.
>
> Thanks
>
> A few links:
> * Current Open Source communities utilizing Discord: https://discord.com/open-source
> * Zephyr Discord: https://discord.gg/28BgkM
>
> (NOTE: The Zephyr Discord is setup for testing purposes at this time)
>
>




Jett ✈ Rink
 

If Zephyr is non-profit (which it seems to be), then it will be eligible to sign up for G Suite for nonprofit which includes many features for free. I have personally set this up for two non-profits and it is pretty straightforward.

I agree that chat.google.com is very well hidden ;)

-Jett

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 6:15 PM Nashif, Anas <anas.nashif@...> wrote:

Jett,

Zephyr project is not subscribed to any gsuite plans, free or paid. AFAIK we use google docs from LF in some areas. Maybe we should look into the non-profit “companies” option.

Never heard of chat.google.com, well hidden 😊

 

Anas

 

From: <devel@...> on behalf of "Jett Rink via lists.zephyrproject.org" <jettrink=google.com@...>
Reply to: "jettrink@..." <jettrink@...>
Date: Tuesday, 21 July 2020 at 19:17
To: Henrik Brix Andersen <henrik@...>
Cc: Kumar Gala <kumar.gala@...>, zephyr-devel <zephyr-devel@...>, Ryan Johnson via Zephyr-users <zephyr-users@...>
Subject: Re: [Zephyr-devel] Community input on possible change to Discord from Slack

 

I know that Zephyr uses Google docs already, and that Gsuite is free for non-profit companies. Have we considered chat.google.com as an alternative? It may be free or part of what Zephyr is already paying for. It has conversations/threads and history, etc.

 

-Jett

 

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 3:23 AM Henrik Brix Andersen <henrik@...> wrote:

Hi all,

I have never used Discord before, but I given it a quick try the last couple of days.

My main concern is that Discord does not support threads (only quoting). This will cause all messages to go to the channel, making it more difficult to glance over the new topics.
It also makes it rather impossible to continue a discussion over several days or to follow up on a question or solution several days later, something that is often used on Slack today.

One of the bullets below lists shared accounts across servers as a pro for Discord. I am not so sure. The sign-on process was at least as difficult as with Slack.

Have we considered that once Discord settles on their business models, they too might start charging for unlimited message history?

Maybe it is just me, but there is also the question of familiarity with the service for our users.
It is my personal experience that many professionals within the embedded market know of Slack, but not many use Discord perhaps due to it being rooted in the gaming communities?

Regards,
Brix
--
Henrik Brix Andersen


> On 17 Jul 2020, at 00.27, Kumar Gala <kumar.gala@...> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> We’ve had a few discussion in the Zephyr TSC regarding the need for maintaining history in our chat communication platform and the limitation that Slack imposes on this for free usage.  The general feeling is that having access to historical discussions is important for the continued growth of the Zephyr community.
>
> We have tried to engage Slack on a cost effective solution but unfortunately that does not appear to be an option.  A few different options that have been evaluated (Discord, matrix.org, rocket chat, Microsoft Teams) and Discord seemed to be the best option and has had a fair amount of history with Adafruit (a Silver Member).
>
> Some requirements for Zephyr chat platform:
> * Maintain history
> * integration with other services (like GitHub)
> * private channels
> * ideally free - or low cost
> * no overhead for Zephyr Project (ie not having to run our own server).
>
> Pros of Discord:
> * Shared accounts across "servers" which are really just communities. Makes joining a new server very fast and easy.
> * Strong moderation tools (mute, ban, kick) per server. No need to wait for Discord to help.
> * Unlimited history for free.
> * Easy to join via invite link, chat and then establish an account.
>
> Cons of Discord:
> * Can get spammy when publicly listed.
> * Still in the startup phase so they are experimenting with business models. Currently "Nitro" subscription which unlocks server capabilities: https://discord.com/new/nitro
> * Closed source so interop with Matrix and IRC is tricky but doable.
>
> We’d like to get any feedback from the community at large before finalizing a decision in the TSC.  The topic will be on the July 29th TSC meeting and will review any email feedback that anyone has on the topic.
>
> Thanks
>
> A few links:
> * Current Open Source communities utilizing Discord: https://discord.com/open-source
> * Zephyr Discord: https://discord.gg/28BgkM
>
> (NOTE: The Zephyr Discord is setup for testing purposes at this time)
>
>




Paul Sokolovsky
 

Hello,

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 23:55:18 +0000
"Nashif, Anas" <anas.nashif@...> wrote:

It depends who you ask, lots of people actually do not care or like
threads the way they are implemented in Slack. This is basically a
place where conversation just get buried.
+2, one for each account. I find the threads hard to use/follow in
realtime, and apparently very hard to get back to in archive if you
don't know a precise search term.

IRC did not have threads,
yet it is still there after almost 30 years.
+1 for mentioning IRC too. After trying Slack, I personally find IRC
more comfortable. I actually came to appreciate its liteweight design
as very smart and deliberate, emphasizing the core feature - quick
chat, and leaving the rest to more tangible communication methods, like
email.


Anas
[]

--
Best Regards,
Paul

Linaro.org | Open source software for ARM SoCs
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